Below is a ChatGPT summary of my conversation with Roman (which I’ve reviewed for accuracy). You can find the exact transcript on Substack.
Roman began by sharing his thoughts on a documentary he recently watched about Mount Athos, a place he had not known about before. He explained that Mount Athos is an island off Greece exclusively inhabited by Orthodox Christian monasteries for over a thousand years. The monks there live austere lives, getting only about three hours of sleep a night and waking at 3:30 a.m. for prayers. Roman noted the solemnity of their daily routines, emphasizing the purity of intent behind their singing and chanting. He compared it to Gregorian chants, describing how the monks use music and melody for the highest purposes.
In addition to prayer, the monks dedicate themselves to productive labor. They make their own clothes, prepare food, tend to gardens, and carve intricate iconography. Roman admired the beautiful art they create and recounted a historical anecdote: during World War II, the monks wrote letters to Hitler, asking for protection and to spare their island from plunder. Surprisingly, Hitler agreed, although Nazis visited the island to survey its art. Roman reflected on the monks’ spiritual mission, mentioning that they keep the skulls of deceased monks on display as a reminder of life’s impermanence. The monks see their lives as a relentless effort toward self-purification, believing their prayers impact the spiritual foundation of humanity.
Roman recalled a past conversation where Matt had expressed skepticism about the viability of the renunciate life in the modern world. Roman sensed that Matt’s perspective had shifted, now leaning toward the idea that staying in the world while striving for spiritual progress might be more valuable. Roman acknowledged that the monks believe their remote, concentrated efforts have a spiritual effect on all humanity, likening this view to Steiner’s philosophy of influencing the collective through spiritual dedication.
Matt responded, agreeing with the value of small, dedicated groups of contemplatives. He pointed out that their influence could stem from mysterious metaphysical means or simply from the moral inspiration they provide to the wider world. This moral example raises humanity’s sense of potential. He mentioned figures like Sri Aurobindo and The Mother, who claimed they were engaging in spiritual battles on the astral plane against evil Nazi forces, though Matt saw this as unnecessary to the monks’ broader impact.
Matt then reflected on his personal journey. He shared that, in his youth, he had considered a renunciate path, fantasizing about following Ram Dass to India, finding a guru, and meditating his way to enlightenment. Over time, however, he realized this yearning stemmed from a desire to escape psychological confusion and youthful struggles. He eventually decided to contribute to the world instead of withdrawing from it. Despite this, Matt acknowledged that he still leads a somewhat monkish lifestyle.
Roman brought up an observation from the documentary: monks often encounter people seeking refuge from their lives. These individuals, expecting to be surrounded by saints, are often disillusioned when they find that monks are also flawed humans. Roman noted that only those deeply committed to their prayer life endure monastic life, as the core of monasticism lies in a personal relationship with the divine.
Roman mused about the inspirational power of the monks’ lives, suggesting that imagining their way of life could influence one’s actions in the world. He even imagined an alternate version of himself living at Mount Athos, praying and meditating, and wondered how that self might view the fast-changing, chaotic world.
The conversation shifted to art and spirituality. Matt brought up Oscar Wilde’s De Profundis, in which Wilde envisions Christ as an artist and individualist who upset the religious establishment by forging a personal connection to the divine. Matt read excerpts from the text, highlighting Wilde’s portrayal of Christ as a visionary and a supreme artist who embraced the suffering and beauty of life. Wilde’s vision, Matt suggested, offers a compelling alternative to traditional moralizing views of Christ, framing him as a figure who reveals life’s grandeur and inspires creativity.
Roman noted that Christ often used organic metaphors, such as wheat and chaff or trees and roots, to communicate profound truths. He admired Christ’s ability to meet people where they were and confound rigid dichotomies between metaphor and literal truth.
The conversation turned to fame, with Roman reflecting on how Jesus’ immense fame contrasts with his teachings of humility. Roman observed that in modern culture, fame is often equated with truth, creating a strange dynamic where people are drawn to obscure figures, like monks, who deliberately avoid fame. He likened this humility to Gandalf’s refusal of the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings. Roman expressed frustration with the tension between spreading important messages through modern media and the inherently self-promotional nature of that act.
Matt shared a critique of a monk with a large YouTube following, questioning the compatibility of a monastic life with social media. He acknowledged the value of such content but noted the deep contradictions of participating in modern media while adhering to ancient spiritual practices. This led him to recommend René Girard’s theory of mimetic desire, which explores how imitation drives societal dynamics, including celebrity culture and scapegoating.
Roman brought up the Holocaust as a recent “sacred event” in human history, noting how it continues to shape societal narratives and evoke archetypal imagery of good and evil. He wondered about the future, speculating whether humanity faces another great catastrophe or a transcendent rise of spiritual awareness. He also entertained a dystopian vision of humanity merging with technology, losing its sense of the divine, and becoming a different part of nature altogether.
Matt responded by emphasizing the importance of risk and contingency in creation. He found the idea of an omniscient, preordaining God unappealing, preferring a God who enters into the uncertainties of relationship and creation. This perspective, he noted, aligns with Whitehead’s concept of God as both primordial perfection and consequent responsiveness.
The conversation deepened into the paradoxes of divine perfection and human suffering. Roman grappled with the tension between a God who is fully involved in creation and one who remains beyond it. Matt echoed these complexities, suggesting that the divine is simultaneously within and beyond human experience. He described God as both suffering alongside humanity and offering a transcendent vision of perfection.
The dialogue concluded with reflections on the nature of faith and humility. Roman shared his struggle to conceptualize God without limiting the divine to a particular framework. Both agreed that God transcends any single image or concept, embodying both immanence and transcendence. They acknowledged the need to grapple with paradoxes, finding wisdom in the tension between opposites.
Footnotes2Plato 
What do you think?